Straight Talk With Senator Ron Johnson
Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson was my guest this morning, and my frustration with his Committee’s failure to subpoena witnesses came through:
Audio:
Transcript:
HH: Joined by Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin. Good morning, Senator.
RJ: Good morning, Hugh. Hope you’re staying healthy.
HH: I am. I hope you are as well. Let me begin by asking you about Senator Harris. You’ve worked with her closely for four years. The Senate’s a small place. What do you make of Senator Harris?
RJ: She’s on my Homeland Security Committee, and I can tell you she’s an aggressive questioner. There’s absolutely no doubt about that, and I think the Supreme Court nominees, Neil Kavanaugh certainly, or Brett Kavanaugh certainly found that out as well. So she’s going to be a bulldog on the campaign. No doubt about it.
HH: Oh, I just describe her as tough, smart, left. Three words. Tough, smart, left. Fair enough?
RJ: I think that’s a pretty accurate description. We’ll see how America likes it.
HH: Now let me go to you, Senator. In October of last year, it’s been since October you were on Meet the Press with Chuck Todd, and you said you don’t trust Brennan. You don’t trust Comey. You don’t trust Strzok. You don’t trust any of them. Why haven’t they been subpoenaed by your committee, yet? It’s been ten months.
RJ: Well, first of all, I need approval of my committee members. And it was tough enough getting the subpoenas on Blue Star Strategies and then the other subpoena authority I’ve got. So and also, Lindsey Graham has been given the assignment by Leader McConnell to really investigate that portion of the corruption. And he’s the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. So I mean, we do have some kind of lines of jurisdiction in terms of what you’re trying to do.
HH: Look, everybody in this audience wants Jim Comey under oath, and they want John Brennan under oath. They want Andrew McCabe under oath. And it seems to me if you’ve got a Republican on your committee, and you only have a one, do you have a one or a two vote majority on your committee, Senator?
RJ: Well, if I lose one, I lose the vote. So it doesn’t make. I’ve got two…
HH: Okay. So I’d like to know which Republican is blocking a Jim Comey subpoena from you, because we’re, the election is here. And whether it’s you or Lindsey, we’re out of time. You guys have blown the time. It’s like they ran the four corners offense against you and you’ve run out of time.
RJ: Well, let me back up and say before you interview people, you want the documents so you can ask some intelligent questions. That’s why I finally subpoenaed the FBI to get the documents. Foot dragging on the part of…
HH: But Senator, that does nothing for me. It does nothing for me. We have waited for three years for someone to put Comey under oath. That’s your or Lindsey. I’ll blame you both, but you know…
RJ: Well, that’s fine.
HH: I, well, it’s not fine. The American people, it’s not fine.
RJ: I mean…
HH: We are owed answers about an attempted coup of the President, and we’re not getting them from the legislative oversight. And you are one of the two chairmen.
RJ: And I’m just telling you, I had a devil of a time just getting the subpoena authority that I got.
HH: What does that mean? I mean, who is the screw-up on your committee? Which Republican doesn’t want to get to the bottom of this?
RJ: We had a number, we had a number of my committee members who were highly concerned about how this looks politically.
HH: Who? Who?
RJ: Hugh, I’m not, you know, I’m just not going to be naming names that way. But…
HH: But you see, why shouldn’t everyone? You know me, Senator. I’m a big backer of you. I’ve helped you through two close elections. But I have had it with Republicans in the Senate calling up nobody that we want to hear from. I had the President on yesterday. He said it goes far beyond the FBI and into the intelligence community. And we’ve never seen any of these people under oath being asked question. And with documents, I don’t need documents. I could ask Jim Comey questions in my sleep.
RJ: And he would dodge them, and he wouldn’t remember, and he wouldn’t subject himself to getting his classification, his security clearance upped again, so he’d said oh, I’m not cleared to answer those kinds of questions. He was interviewed by the House, and he’s a slippery character. So you need documents in order to effectively question him. And that’s…
HH: No, you actually don’t. I mean, this is where lawyers have a little advantage over a businessman. Let me ask you if you’ve discussed with John Durham the investigation. Are you holding back because of John Durham’s request that you hold back?
RJ: I have never spoken to John Durham, but I’ve had a number of meetings with Attorney General Barr. And I think Attorney General Barr is fantastic. My concern and my problem is with the FBI Director Wray who has not, who just slow-walked any kind of production of documents to our committee.
HH: I actually, I don’t want to beat up on Wray. Wray wasn’t there at the scene of the crime. Wray doesn’t know what’s going on. Wray and the documents don’t matter. I want to know if…
RJ: Yeah, but Hugh, but Hugh, Hugh, Wray was director when the FBI briefed the Senate Intelligence Community in February, 2018. We just had that memo. I mean, there’s a pretty important document that we hadn’t seen until Sunday where they premeditatedly lied to the Senate Intel Committee that they still thought that the Steele dossier was reliable.
HH: Senator, I don’t know if people on the Senate lose touch with America, but documents don’t matter. Videotape and witnesses matter. Documents go blah, blah, blah. It’s so much background noise that they simply fall asleep.
RJ: Yeah, but Hugh, I would say a show trial when people just duck questions…
HH: I don’t want a show trial. I want a serious lawyer asking a series of questions deposition-like instead of senators grandstanding. And if there’s a senator who was blocking a subpoena, we need to know who that is so we throw them out. I mean, it’s just that you’re…
RJ: Which is why I don’t do the show trials. I actually have serious lawyers ask the questions in depositions in the Senate.
HH: The depositions don’t help us, either.
RJ: But any lawyer before they sit down and depose a client, you know, somebody, they’re going to want the documents to know what questions to ask them.
HH: That is absolutely true. And if you can’t get the documents, you put them down anyway. Senator, I’m just asking you, are you aware that in the eyes of someone like me, a center-right…
RJ: Yes. Yes, I understand.
HH: You’re failing. Do you understand that the committee and Senator Graham’s committee on this issue are failing the American people? We don’t have the answers.
RJ: I share your frustration, which is why I subpoenaed Director Wray. Okay, yes. I understand time is running out. But Hugh, when you have, first of all, you have a criminal investigation, so we don’t get documents. Then you have a special counsel and you don’t get documents. Then you have an impeachment, and then you have COVID. It has definitely slowed us down in terms of our ability to get information.
HH: Then why do you go home on the weekends? Why is the Senate in session three days a week if you’re being slowed down? Why the hell don’t you stay there and demand documents seven days a week, 24 hours a day? Why don’t you…
RJ: Well, there are…
HH: We have failed.
RJ: Whether I’m in D.C. or not, I’m working on this almost non-stop, okay? So is my staff. I don’t need to be in D.C. here. But regardless, Hugh…okay…
HH: Well, again, if I’m not in my studio, I ain’t working. Let me go back to Barr. Has Barr told you that there is a grand jury?
RJ: No, I haven’t discussed that with him.
HH: Do you know if there is a grand jury?
RJ: No, I don’t.
HH: Do you expect any kind of indictments for any reason at all from Durham before October?
RJ: There certainly should be some.
HH: Well, that’s…
RJ: Yeah, again. I don’t know, I don’t know why they haven’t incited Andrew McCabe, yet.
HH: I asked what you expect.
RJ: I mean, we have the Inspector General report on Andrew McCabe lying to the FBI four times, and he’s still not indicted. I don’t understand that, either.
HH: But that’s, the question was is your expectation, do you expect indictments before October? Does Ron Johnson expect them, chairman of the committee with oversight?
RJ: There should be. I don’t have the power to indict.
HH: That’s not, that’s not the question. Do you expect them?
RJ: And I also don’t have access to the documents that Durham has. We’re trying to get those documents so we can prove things.
HH: I’m just asking you, Senator. Do you expect them? People out there want to know what’s going to happen, and you’re in a position to tell us what you, Ron Johnson, feel, not what you’d like to feel, but what you actually feel. Do you expect we’re going to be sitting on indictments or no indictments?
RJ: Hugh, I’m not involved with Durham’s investigation. But he should be indicting people.
HH: Yeah, but that’s not…
RJ: He should have indicted people earlier. Andrew McCabe should have been indicted a year ago for lying to the FBI. George Papadopoulos spent ten days in prison here in Wisconsin for lying to the FBI. Andrew McCabe lied to them four times, it’s well-documented, and no indictments, yet. I can’t figure that out.
HH: I’m shaking my head. I don’t think, Senator, you understand the depth to which people like me, the center-right of the party, are absolutely disappointed in our senators.
RJ: No, Hugh, I fully understand.
HH: Absolutely disappointed. They played hardball in the House, you guys play softball underhand in the Senate. And we are going to lose this election if we lose it in the Senate, if we lose it in the Senate because you and Lindsey let them do this. You’ve let them slow walk you into a corner.
RJ: I don’t know how to respond to that, Hugh. I’m doing everything I can in terms of pushing this thing forward.
HH: Well, you ought to go kick ass on your committee staff and fire people.
RJ: I’m under personal attack. They’re trying to destroy me. I’m pushing forward. I’m just sorry you feel this way. I’m doing everything I believe I possibly can on this thing.
HH: You know what? You want a suggestion? Go into your next committee hearing and ask for the authority to subpoena Jim Comey and hold a vote in public and let’s see who says no, because that will tell me a lot about the senators on your committee. Will you commit to doing that?
RJ: Not on a radio show, Hugh. Sorry.
HH: What’s wrong with a radio show? I had the President on yesterday.
RJ: Again, there, Hugh, what can I say, Hugh? I’m doing everything I can.
HH: Maybe I’m sorry to the American people. Maybe I’m sorry…
RJ: Read my, read my, Hugh, have you read the 11 page open letter I just published on Monday?
HH: No. Don’t you get it?
RJ: …goals
HH: You don’t get it. We don’t care about that. I want to know when Comey’s going to be in front of your committee, and it sounds like never.
RJ: Well, that’s, I know you’re hung up on Comey’s testimony. There’s all kinds of different aspects to this thing as well. So…
HH: Senator Ron Johnson, come back when you’ve got something for me.
RJ: Oh, yeah, I’ll be glad to, Hugh.
HH: All right. Take care. Be well. I’ll be right back, America. Stay tuned.
End of interview.
