Former Vice President Mike Pence joined me on the program this morning:

Audio:

06-09hhs-pence

Transcript:

HH: Joined by former Vice President of the United States, Mike Pence. Mr. Vice President, welcome back to the Hugh Hewitt Show.

MP: Great to be back on the show, Hugh. Thanks for having me on.

HH: Well, thank you for joining me. Let’s first begin with your reaction to the news overnight that Former President Trump has been indicted.

MP: Well, I think it’s important to note that we don’t know the facts in this case. No one does. But you know, after years of politicization at the Justice Department, two and a half years in our administration where we fought against the Russia hoax that the Durham report recently confirmed, was an investigation that should never even been started. And then when we saw the collusion between Big Tech and Big Media, and even the FBI to suppress the Hunter Biden laptop story going into our investigation, you know, I’m deeply troubled to see this, to see this indictment move forward. I mean, you know, yesterday, on the road in Iowa, I had said that I had hoped that the DOJ would see its way clear not to move forward here. But let me be very clear. No one is above the law. As you know better than most, Hugh, handling classified materials is a very serious matter. That was why in my own case, after multiple disclosures at the personal residence of President Biden with documents and records dating back to when he was Vice President of the United States, I had my records examined. We found that there were some classified documents that had made their way back into my personal records. We fully cooperated with the Justice Department. I took full responsibility, and I’m pleased the Justice Department concluded that investigation last week, found that it was an innocent mistake. But it was a mistake. We have to protect our nation’s secrets. And my only hope is as we learn about the facts of this indictment next week, that the American people will see in this case that it would meet a high standard necessary to justify the unprecedented federal indictment of a former president of the United States by the current president of the United States’ Justice Department, and by a potential rival. Look, as I said, I had hoped the DOJ would see its way clear to resolve this without an indictment. I think this is going to be terribly divisive for the country. I also think it sends a terrible message to the wider world that looks at America as a standard of not only democracy, but of justice. But now we’ll look forward.

HH: Mr. Vice President…

MP: We’ll learn the facts, but Lady Justice is blind. And you know, I announced my intentions to seek the Republican nomination for president this week, Hugh, and I want to pledge to your listeners around the country that when I become president, I’m going to clean house at the highest levels of the Justice Department. We’re going to appoint men and women of integrity at every level that will restore the public confidence of the American people in equal justice under the law.

HH: Do you think Christopher Wray needs to go?

MP: Well, I said look, I think if I become president of the United States, we’re going to clean house all across the top floors, whether it’s the Justice Department or whether it’s the FBI. I think, I just think we need a whole new team. I think there’s been literally a collapse of confidence. Look, we have to have confidence in our institutions in this country. WE have to have confidence in the rule of law. We have to be willing to stand on the rule of law. And so absolutely, yes. I think we need to clean house across the board at the Justice Department, the FBI. And also, we have to recognize, Hugh, as you know well, that the vast majority of men and women that serve in the FBI, and who are in law enforcement at every level in this country are the best people in this country. And the failures and the history of politicization that we have witnessed, in fact the weaponization of the law in the political realm in the recent years against our administration, and now against the former president here, potentially, I just, we need a new team. We need new leadership in the White House, and I’m going to work my heart out in the next year and a half to deliver that for the American people.

HH: Mr. Vice President, a couple of quick questions. Have you been in front of this Grand Jury, the one that has indicted the former president?

MP: This is the Grand Jury, I believe, that was convened in Miami…

HH: Correct.

MP: The answer to that is no. I responded to a subpoena after we properly defended the Constitutional protections around my role as president of the Senate. I did respond to a subpoena and appeared before a Grand Jury in Washington.

HH: Right. I knew that, but I didn’t know that you had, I didn’t think you’d been before the Miami, but I wanted to make sure.

MP: No, we haven’t.

HH: Now you went to IU Law School. I went to Michigan Law School. I have never prosecuted a case. I’ve been in one criminal court as a pro bono defense attorney, not very good. Were you ever a prosecutor, Mr. Pence?

MP: Say again?

HH: Were you ever a prosecutor during your private practice days?

MP: I was not, no, during my private practice days. I occasionally sat as a judge pro tem.

HH: Oh, so did I. That was always great fun.

MP: But that was always in civil court, yeah.

HH: Now let me ask you, do you think it’s responsible for this indictment to be sealed? This is a first in American history indictment of a former president, and it has not been made public.

MP: I think the Justice Department should immediately move to unseal the indictment. I think the sooner we bring the facts forward to the American people, the better. The American people have a right to know of the basis for both the facts and the law underpinning the unprecedented indictment of a former president of the United States under federal law. So I would call for that, and am doing so now on your broadcast. I truly do believe while I believe there’s a hearing on Tuesday, and this information comes out then, look, we need to do everything that we can to give the American people the facts in this case and end the rampant speculation as the media is beginning its latest rush to judgment. The American people are entitled to the facts and the law in this case.

HH: I couldn’t agree more, Mr. Vice President. I was talking to another Richard, not your lawyer, Richard. I know your lawyer, Richard, too, but another Richard who knows your Richard lawyer, and we were just astonished that it should be a speaking indictment, a so-called speaking indictment. It should be the Daniel Webster of speaking indictments. It ought to go on forever. But this is so strange. Do you think it’s responsible for Merrick Garland not to have said anything?

MP: I don’t understand the rollout of this at all. I was very troubled to hear, I was very troubled to hear from some of the President’s counsels speaking on television last night that they learned through press reports about the indictment in the first instance, and that we haven’t heard from the Justice Department even up to this moment. It’s totally unacceptable. Look, this is a, this is a sad day for America to see a former president of the United States face an indictment under federal law. And again, I think it sends a divisive message across the country and a terrible message across the wider world. And the sooner that we know the facts under this, the American people can make their own judgment about whether or not there was any merit to this case at all.

HH: Do you think the Attorney General and Special Counsel Smith should appear in front of the press and answer questions?

MP: I think at very minimum, the Attorney General of the United States should appear before the American people, lay out all the facts that they know, all the relevant law in this case, and answer questions until every question is answered. Look, this is, again, this is a sad day for America. I mean, no one would welcome this moment, and particularly at a time, I have to tell you, Hugh, I mean, I’m running for president, because I think this country is in a lot of trouble. I mean, the American people are facing extraordinary hardship under the failed policies of the Biden administration where you know better than most that we have widening peril in the world every day. I mean, the enemies of freedom have been emboldened by the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan and the weak leadership of this administration. And here at home, Americans feel that their liberties and their values are under assault. And this will just add fuel to the fire. It’s one of the reasons I want to be, I want to be someone that makes it clear. No one’s above the law. Handling classified materials is a very serious matter. But we don’t know the facts in this case. No one does. And the American people to deserve to know. They have a right to know the facts in this case, and I think the Attorney General of the United States should go before the American people, come clean about the basis of this decision, and the American people can make their own judgment.

HH: Now Mr. Vice President, long ago and far away, I clerked for the three judge panel back in the days of the independent counsel law, when we appointed Jake Stein, the three judges, not the clerk, I was just watching, to investigate Ed Meese. And he was a very, very well-known private practice lawyer. And unlike most special counsels or independent counsels, and the name changes depending on the era, he was done in six months, and Ed Meese then went on to be confirmed, because he was exonerated. Mr. Smith is a very unusual background. He’s from the Hague. He’s a war crime prosecutor. And he’s an unusually, alleged to be an unusually ferocious prosecutor. Do you think that is a good idea in this situation to have someone, and by the way, I’ll mix two questions. Your reaction to Mr. Smith, and does this impact the presidential race? I mean, it obviously does, but I’d like your reaction, because prosecutors are not supposed to impact presidential races.

MP: Well, I’m not a fan of special prosecutors generally. I thought we did well to get rid of the independent counsel statute to begin with. When you appoint a special prosecutor, more often than not, you prosecute. Period. That’s what they’re appointed to do, as opposed to just following the facts and following the law. I mean, I don’t know for the world why we embrace special prosecutors in the way that we do. Good heavens, what we went through in our administration with the appointment of a special counsel that we now know was, based on completely bogus and political facts, speaks for itself. And it’s a black mark in the history of the Justice Department. And so I hold that general view with regard to whoever is serving in that capacity. And look, this, with regard to the politics of this, I find myself less focused on that in this moment. I mean, to me, it’s, as I said in Iowa yesterday, I just had hoped that the Department of Justice would see their way clear to resolve these issues with the former president without moving forward with an indictment, because I think it comes at a time of great hardship for the country, and it also will serve to impact politics in this country one way or the other. It’ll drive even more divisiveness in our country when everywhere I go, I hear the American people say that we want to see leadership that will confront the problems that we’re chasing and that we’re facing at home and abroad, Hugh.

HH: You know, Mr. Vice President, I want people to hear this. You are running against your former running mate, and yet you deplore this, because it just wrecks American politics. And I want to remind people the former president was ambushed in Trump Tower on the first January 6th, 2017, by Mr. Clapper and Mr. Brennan and Mr. Comey. We had two years of Mueller. We had two impeachments. We have the Alvin Bragg idiocy. We have the Georgia proceedings with the spouting jury forewoman. We’ve got a special counsel from the Hague. We have no statement from the Attorney General in a hidden indictment. Do you expect the American people to have any confidence in this process?

MP: Look, I understand the deep concern. I share it. I lived through all those things. I mean, I lived through the years of politicization. I watched no indictment of Hillary Clinton after 33,000 emails and a hammer taken to a server and bleach. I lived through years of the Russia hoax myself. I mean, as you know, we incurred hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees…

HH: Yes.

MP: …responding to that bogus investigation. I watched as we learned that FBI agents with political motivations were driving that. And then in the leadup to the 2020 Election, I watched at Big Tech and Big Media with the FBI holding the Hunter Biden laptop all manage to completely cover up the reality of what we’re now continuing to see unfurl as more and more evidence of literal corruption in the Biden family. And I understand the deep concern of the American people about the politicization of our Justice Department in this country. But I want to step back on this one, and I want to say look, handling classified information is a very serious matter. No one knows the facts in this case, and I’m calling on the Attorney General of the United States, along with you and others, Hugh, to say that this indictment should be unsealed, the American people have a right to know, and if I have the great privilege of serving as president of the United States, we’re going to clean house at the highest level of the Justice Department, and we’re going to appoint men and women of integrity who will restore and rebuild the foundations of public confidence in American justice. We deserve nothing less, and after years of politicization that’s come to light, I understand and share the deep, deep concern of the American people about the unprecedented indictment of a former president of the United States by the current president and by this, and against his potential rival.

HH: Do you think, Mr. Vice President, that Donald Trump can get a fair trial in Miami or anywhere in the United States? It’s going to be a carnival. It’s going to make the O.J. trial look like a warmup act at a bad club. It’s going to go on forever, and it’s going to impact our politics. But do you think he can be treated fairly?

MP: Well, I have every confidence that President Trump and his legal team will be able to make their defense. He’s, I know him well. Served shoulder to shoulder with him for four years. He knows how to make his case and defend himself. And I must tell you, I still believe in the foundations of the American justice system. I still believe in the American people. And should this matter go to trial, I have every confidence in the common sense and judgment of the American people to be discerning in this matter. It’s just, look, all of the rot in our justice system in America is at the top. I mean, this is a good, decent, fair-minded nation. And the people that serve in law enforcement at every level are some of the best people in this country. And we just need new leadership that will move us past this era of politicization and weaponization in the Justice Department, and appoint the kind of people at the highest levels that will restore public confidence by virtue of their integrity and their commitment to the rule of law.

HH: I think people are surprised that everything, Tim Scott said it before the indictment on this show yesterday, Ron DeSantis tweeted it out last night, the weaponization of federal law enforcement represents a mortal threat to our free society. You used the term weaponization. When all of the opponents of the indicted candidate speak out against the process, that tells me that our left in the United States doesn’t have a clue as to what this represents to the right. And I want to quote my friend and colleague at the Washington Post, Ruth Marcus, in a column this morning referring to your comments on CNN before the indictment when you said it would be terribly divisive to this country. I think it would also send a terrible message to the wider world. She quoted you, Ruth did, and then she wrote, “Pence has things half-right. Divisive. That goes without saying in these polarized times. The broader message, though, is that the rule of law prevails in the United States no matter who is accused of wrongdoing.” Of course, the rule of law applies, Mr. Vice President. But can and should the media ignore everything that has gone on before as we consider this very unusual special counsel and the silence from the Attorney General in this, I mean, I’m just stunned by this. It’s a first ever thing in American history, and we don’t know anything about it.

MP: Well, I think that’s the point, is that the media speaks about this as though it’s happened in a vacuum, as if this is the first moment that we’ve seen any action that may bear upon American politics. Good heavens. I mean, again, I go back to that 2016 campaign when I was out there shoulder to shoulder with my running mate and we saw the director of the FBI call a press conference exonerating Hillary Clinton after it was found she had mishandled 33,000 documents, classified documents. So no indictment there, then the Russia hoax, then everything we’ve gone through. The media’s unwillingness, and frankly, the rush to judgment that I’ve seen in most of the major media, and in this case, on the left, is not surprising. You know, this is, having lived through this and been through this fight, this is a moment I think when we do well. Those of us that have had the opportunity to serve in leadership in this country, and those who aspire to leadership, to take a half-step back, and go to first principles, alright? It’s just, let’s remember first and foremost. Every American is innocent until proven guilty. That is a bedrock principle of American justice, Hugh. You know that. And the other principle is that no one is above the law. The handling of classified materials is a very serious matter. That’s why I handled it the way I handled it when documents were found in my residence. I took full responsibility for it. We fully cooperated, but it was a mistake. But I just, that’s why I’m standing here today. I want to remind people that we don’t know the facts of this case. We don’t have any idea what’s in it. The Justice Department, I think before the sun sets today, the Attorney General of the United States should be standing in front of the American people, should unseal this indictment, should provide the American people with all the facts and information here, and the American people will be able to judge for themselves whether this is just the latest incident of weaponization and politicization at the Justice Department, or if it’s something different.

HH: I have two more questions, Mr. Vice President. One, the debates begin in August. I know you’ll quality to be on the stage. I’m sure people, I don’t even know what your website is. What’s your website. Mr. Vice President, for the campaign?

MP: www.mikepence2024.com. Thanks, Hugh.

H: www.mikepence2024.com. I’m sure you’ll be on the stage. I hope I’m asking questions. But I don’t know that the former President can engage in debates without legal peril. That’s part of this problem. Do you think he can? I just don’t think he can.

MP: Well, I just, I don’t, look, I think debates are vitally important, and I, people have asked me a couple of times. They said how would you ever feel about debating Donald Trump in the Republican primary debates, and I said I’ve debated Donald Trump many times.

HH: (laughing) Every day, probably.

MP: Just not with the cameras on. So no, look, I’m very confident that we’ll be able to accommodate. The Republican Party will do a great job pulling those debates together. We’ll be able to accommodate and make sure that the former president, the former vice president, and everybody else that qualifies will be able to be on that stage.

HH: Now believe it or not, when we scheduled this interview, it was going to be all about China. Not only are you the former vice president, but you have a son in arms and a son-in-law in arms. And you look at the China thing. China has opened a spy base in Cuba, according to the Wall Street Journal. They ran a ship across two of our Navy’s finest ships. And I’m just, this is why I hate this indictment. We should have been talking about the existential threat to the United States which his General-Secretary Xi Jinping. But I want to close, Mr. Vice President, but giving you a chance to opine on that base and on the conduct of the Chinese People Liberation Army, Navy in the Taiwan Strait.

HH: Hugh, it’s an absolute outrage to hear reports that China is establishing a spy base in Cuba. It’s totally unacceptable. As I’ve said, we need a new Monroe doctrine for the 21st Century that essentially says to China, to Russia, to other foreign powers that would come into our hemisphere that this a hemisphere of freedom. And we’re going to continue to take steps to ensure that that’s the case not only for the security of this country, but the security of the entire hemisphere. And look, thank you for mentioning my sons, always. You know, my son the Marine and my son-in-law the Navy pilot have both deployed. They’ve deployed in the Asia Pacific. China is today the greatest economic and strategic threat the United States faces. It can only be met with American strength. And the Biden administration today, and sadly the deal that they just cut for the debt ceiling actually puts us in a position where we’ll have a 1% cut after inflation in Defense spending. I mean, it’s astonishing, Hugh. And I want to come back on and talk about it. It’s astonishing at a time when China is floating a new battleship every month, the Biden administration, in the wake of its disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan, its weak leadership abroad, it’s actually talking about cutting military spending. It’s one of the reasons why I had hoped the DOJ would see their way clear to not move forward with this indictment. It’s not just because it’s divisive at home, but because I think it has the potential of distracting the American people and distracting the American public debate on the real threats to our country on the wider world stage, and the challenges we’re facing with a crisis at our border, millions of people pouring into this country, a crime wave in our cities. But I promise you, as I move forward with our campaign for president of the United States, we’re going to keep focused on the issues that are impacting the American people. And we’re going to drive forward a policy that will restore the security and the prosperity of the American people.

HH: Mr. Vice President, thank you. Keep coming back. www.mikepence2024.com. I appreciate the extended time this morning and your candor. I always, the show is always open to you. Just let us know, and we’ll have you back, Mr. Vice President. Thank you.

MP: Thank you, Hugh.

End of interview.